Why is Kinesis.money using the paper price as a benchmark?

[SFarid]

One for Andy, With all the historic and current 'ponzy' attributes of the paper gold market that we have constantly ridiculed at, why does kinesis.money follow this paper benchmark price when its super strong point is that it is a physical platform? Surely the physical in Kinesis vaults should be priced at the shanghai price which is a backbone of Kinesis and its founders faith? Regards Saeed

 

[sixgun]

Well this is an interesting question.
It is in the same sort of vein as, should we have yuan trades available on the platform.
I become ever disillusioned with the Western banking system and Western fiat. I guess that is why i am here in the first place i suppose.

I suppose it depends where the gold is sourced from, how is it paid for and so on - if it is being sourced out of the Western system then it will be done on the basis of Western pricing systems.

 

[SFarid]

It is interesting you put it like that sixgun. If the gold is sourced from Western system as you call it then you are correct it will be sold at the current paper price plus premium.

 

[SFarid]

however the question was : Why is the Kinesis platform not pricing its metal (on its own platform) based on the physical shanghai price as kinesis metal is physical in the vaults.

For example:
If Kinesis purchased from UK then the metal would be sold to them at the Western price as you call it but then this SUPPLY sits in kinesis vaults and the Kinesis platform in short multiplies this volume of physical by the paper price to show the users their value of physical on the DASHBOARD.

I guess what I am saying is that this physical in the kinesis vaults should be priced at the higher shanghai price - especially after purchase - and especially to represent the kinesis 'holders' portion.

 

[sixgun]

There may be hedging going on with the market makers and that is done on the basis of the Western prices and system.
If metal were being sourced from Shanghai and or direct from Kinesis mines - then one might argue for Eastern prices.
The KAU is already at a premium due to the additional functional value and work done.
In general it is an interesting question - one i would like Mr Maguire to explore without letting out any trade secrets.

 

[NoJoKin]

One for Andy, With all the historic and current 'ponzy' attributes of the paper gold market that we have constantly ridiculed at, why does kinesis.money follow this paper benchmark price when its super strong point is that it is a physical platform? Surely the physical in Kinesis vaults should be priced at the shanghai price which is a backbone of Kinesis and its founders faith? Regards Saeed

Yes, indeed, SFarid, that is a very good question and one that is only going to get more and more interesting and important over the coming year and into the future, IMO.

Who, or what exchange in what country, is going to decide the value of gold and silver, ie, how many pieces of fiat of whatever currency will it take to buy a gram/ounce? Even Shanghai's numbers, though higher, remain low in comparison to what they ought to be, but only bc its exchange still functions in a more or less Western (CityofLondon/NY/Chicago)-run/controlled paper/electronic system. When will they "break free" from the Western system? What will happen or have just happened then? We will certainly at some point be in an unstable system with unstable and/or floating prices. So many questions....

I'll bet Andy could talk for a while about this topic, as no doubt he and his colleagues have spoken about this for years, and I'd be very interested to listen to him.

 

[sixgun]

We used to have a world standard for the price of gold. NM Rothschild with the other usual suspects would decide in London and that was the price for the world. Now things are not so clear. Shanghai has a price, Moscow has a price. These exchanges have real metal not paper promises - even the over the counter spot market in London doesn't and couldn't possibly have all the metal that changes hands.

There is a point in saying - 100% backed, deliverable metal exchanges should not feel constrained by paper sham markets. They should not price their physical metal by nonexistant metal prices.
Kinesis is - well i take it, it is following the paper markets. So is this right?
When might Kinesis follow physical metal exchange prices rather than fake casino prices?
What constrains Kinesis to follow the Western prices?
Clearly if metal does not exist at the Western prices then the market makers on the KMS cannot offer these prices.

 

[SFarid]

I enjoyed reading your comments NotJoKin + SixGuns history education - somethings I did not know.

I posted the question as a result of the following scenario...
working forward from the historic US confiscation order which applied to bars mostly and not coins in general - I began to extrapolate the scene to the current time to imagine what type of risk could emerge - to put 'your stack' at some type of risk.

The resultant scene was a 2024 confiscation order announced 'at a time' - when we all have bars in kinesis accounts.

The final scene captured Sixgun..

---------------------------------------
.. in this dimly lit, clandestine workshop, wherein a palpable sense of urgency hung thick in the air I could see sixgun - our committed, but now beleaguered kinesis ambassador, feverishly toiled amidst the flickering glow of the furnace. Beads of sweat streamed down his furrowed brow, a testament to the relentless pace at which only his iQ could facilitate. The rhythmic clang of hammer meeting metal echoed in the confined space, a symphony of desperation as time relentlessly ticked away. (none of us were urging him on by the way lol)

As the constant threat of impending arrest hung over him like a shadow, the result of a draconian 'Rishi-Jo' confiscation order that deemed possession of gold and silver bars a criminal offense. The authorities, like ominous specters, loomed on the periphery of Sixguns' consciousness, urging him to expedite his work before the inevitable confrontation ensued.

One could only imagine the the tale of resistance woven into the very fabric of such a coin, one that only Sixgun would be deserved of - on the reverse side it read - 'IN THE FACE OF ADVERSITY 2024'.
-------------------the end------------

Anyway the above is just my worrysome way of saying 'should one be coin-heavy and bar-light ? views appreciated.

 

[ROS]

Scared...might this be the soundtrack for your musings?? I can hear Sixgun humming a tune despite his perspiration and efforts!

 

[ROS]

Starting at 3:58 I find myself hammering faster!!

 

[NoJoKin]

I enjoyed reading your comments NotJoKin + SixGuns history education - somethings I did not know.

I posted the question as a result of the following scenario...
working forward from the historic US confiscation order which applied to bars mostly and not coins in general - I began to extrapolate the scene to the current time to imagine what type of risk could emerge - to put 'your stack' at some type of risk.

The resultant scene was a 2024 confiscation order announced 'at a time' - when we all have bars in kinesis accounts.

The final scene captured Sixgun..

---------------------------------------
.. in this dimly lit, clandestine workshop, wherein a palpable sense of urgency hung thick in the air I could see sixgun - our committed, but now beleaguered kinesis ambassador, feverishly toiled amidst the flickering glow of the furnace. Beads of sweat streamed down his furrowed brow, a testament to the relentless pace at which only his iQ could facilitate. The rhythmic clang of hammer meeting metal echoed in the confined space, a symphony of desperation as time relentlessly ticked away. (none of us were urging him on by the way lol)

As the constant threat of impending arrest hung over him like a shadow, the result of a draconian 'Rishi-Jo' confiscation order that deemed possession of gold and silver bars a criminal offense. The authorities, like ominous specters, loomed on the periphery of Sixguns' consciousness, urging him to expedite his work before the inevitable confrontation ensued.

One could only imagine the the tale of resistance woven into the very fabric of such a coin, one that only Sixgun would be deserved of - on the reverse side it read - 'IN THE FACE OF ADVERSITY 2024'.
-------------------the end------------

Anyway the above is just my worrysome way of saying 'should one be coin-heavy and bar-light ? views appreciated.

So you're a writer, JFarid! Very good! I can just see sixgun now, a 100oz gold round in each hand, dashing out of his workshop, blackened face dripping with sweat...

As far as confiscation, many have said, and I agree, that it is unlikely, at least in the US, bc the majority of Americans have very little phyz in their possession. It wouldn't be worth it. And even if they thought of doing it, once the SHTF, I think the governments of especially the West would have way too much chaos on their hands to worry about trying to track down those "criminal gold owners." They'll have a heckuva lot more problems dealing with desperate, starving, maybe freezing people, and in the US especially GUN owners if they even start to try....

 

[sixgun]

Well strangely enough outside the realm of Kinesis i do not own any gold bars. Lots of silver but no gold bars. i do not trust them. i don't have a Sigma testing machine and i have seen too many horror stories of fake bars.
Surely @SFarid there is another question lurking in the shadows. If the criminal enterprises calling themselves our governments were to decide to confescate God's money, how best can we protect ourselves?
We have discussed the possiblity of the confescation of gold from Kinesis vaults - that a strength of Kinesis is there are many vaults in many jurisdictions. So i think @SFarid should fashion another question for the melting pot.

 

[SFarid]

So you're a writer, JFarid! Very good! I can just see sixgun now, a 100oz gold round in each hand, dashing out of his workshop, blackened face dripping with sweat...

As far as confiscation, many have said, and I agree, that it is unlikely, at least in the US, bc the majority of Americans have very little phyz in their possession. It wouldn't be worth it. And even if they thought of doing it, once the SHTF, I think the governments of especially the West would have way too much chaos on their hands to worry about trying to track down those "criminal gold owners." They'll have a heckuva lot more problems dealing with desperate, starving, maybe freezing people, and in the US especially GUN owners if they even start to try....

Thank NJ (if I can may abbreviate you). The word 'unlikely' is settling but not 'vanishing' lol...and yes I can imagine sixgun attending to his mistress with that blackened face lol

 

[SFarid]

Well strangely enough outside the realm of Kinesis i do not own any gold bars. Lots of silver but no gold bars. i do not trust them. i don't have a Sigma testing machine and i have seen too many horror stories of fake bars.
Surely @SFarid there is another question lurking in the shadows. If the criminal enterprises calling themselves our governments were to decide to confescate God's money, how best can we protect ourselves?
We have discussed the possiblity of the confescation of gold from Kinesis vaults - that a strength of Kinesis is there are many vaults in many jurisdictions. So i think @SFarid should fashion another question for the melting pot.

I would imagine most of your stack is fake then sixgun - just double check it - I say - judging from the type of fears your having.......(calm dowm....scouser accent) lol

 

[sixgun]

I would imagine most of your stack is fake then sixgun - just double check it - I say - judging from the type of fears your having.......(calm dowm....scouser accent) lol

The only fake i have ever had was a 1 oz 'silver' bar i bought off ebay before i knew anything. i was so annoyed when i discovered it was junk (some years later) i became super vigilant - hence no gold bars for me until and unless i get a Sigma testing machine.